Curse

northernlights · Jun 13, 2005, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mormegil

That's where I don't agree with WoW players. Big and vast doesn't necessarily mean deep and well conceived. Your 150 buttons will transform every battle in a total mess, and when everyone will know what to do at the right time, maybe only 5-6 effective buttons will be pushed. Try having only 8 slots (for a sheer number of skills), and choosing carefully a build that, as strong as it may be, will get countered someday. This is depth, having 150 buttons isn't. That's the way GW PvP is competitive and balanced.

LOL you can't say a game doesnt have depth because I've created a macro for everything I could possibly want to do in game. I simply choose to have a clickable icon for everything from buffs to teleports to emotes and so on.

Realistically I probably use 60-70 of those buttons on a regular basis.

Either way, Im comparing end game to end game. If haven't played Molten Core/Battlegrounds and are basing comments on what you've heard or read please refrain from posting.

Mormegil · Jun 13, 2005, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by northernlights

Either way, Im comparing end game to end game. If haven't played Molten Core/Battlegrounds and are basing comments on what you've heard or read please refrain from posting.

I played it, of course. It's not even comparable to GW's first Arena. There's little collision detection, little skill involved and the battles tend to be messy lag feasts. WoW was built for PvE, and has an astonishing PvE plus a mediocre PvP that can be enjoyable from time to time. In World of Warcraft, pvping feels like hitting a mob, no one could deny that. GW was built for PvP, and has a mediocre PvE that can be enjoyable from time to time.

And don't be offended please, maybe I expressed my opinion in an undiplomatic way before... if so, pardon.

northernlights · Jun 13, 2005, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Mormegil your making very grandiose comments for someone without end game WoW experience, PVE or PVP.

Some of what your saying was true when WoW launched, but you obviously havent played the game in sometime, and obviously havent accomplished much when you did. Had you spent time in Battlegrounds with a level 60 character Im sure your outlook would be different.

But you havent.

It would be nice if someone else level capped in both games would contribute here.

Aug · Jun 13, 2005, 05:41 PM // 17:41

WoW has as much depth in PvP as GW. It may not be as well balanced (CC abilities in WoW are both overpowered and not powerful enough at the same time) as GW, but between potions, trinkets, usable items from inventory, talent distribution, and the vast number of skills you have available to your class, the game has a lot of variation and depth.

Most of my guild had been playing WoW, and I'd say about 15 people who had been WoW addicts picked up GW when it came out. Of those 15 people, I'd say we have 3 people that play with any frequency that played WoW.

Why people like WoW more?

1) The storyline for GW is horrible. There is almost no continuity from Pre-Searing to Lion's Arch. WTF happened to the Charr? You know, the whole reason we got kicked out of Rin in the first place? Why do we care about the White Mantle again? I thought we wanted rid our homeland of the Charr infestation.

2) Little motivation to progressing in PvE. GW is largely item-independent. This is great for the PvP casual player. But it's horribly stupid for the PvEer. Aside from unlocking skills for PvP, what is the purpose of advancing in the game? There is none. So unless all you really want to do is PvP, the game offers little reason to play. I know many players that simply put the game down when they reach Lion's Arch.

3) The game controls are not as fluid, or fast responding as WoW. This is probably largely due to the fact that where you are positioned is very important, due to collision detection. WoW doesn't deal with collisions, so it can be more carefree in how much lattitude it gives the client in movement. GW 'warps' you around a lot (in comparison to WoW), and just doesn't flow as smoothly. Those of us who are here for the PvP are willing to give up the fluidity for collision detection... but for PvE, it's largely irrelevent.

4) The GW grind is far more annoying/boring than the WoW grind, IMO. I never was bored running the same instances over in WoW, but I'm bored to tears of yet another Riverside run for another Superior rune. In WoW, I knew exactly where I needed to go to get X piece of equipment. That's not the case in GW. I have no better chance of getting a Monk superior rune in Hell's Precipice over Riverside. And the instances in WoW are much more engaging and rewarding. I can run through all of Hell's Precipice with a group of 7 other players and not get one item worth having. You couldn't do that in a high level WoW instance... you were almost guaranteed ONE drop that would be worth using.

For the crowd that enjoys PvE more than PvP (but still does enjoy PvP), WoW is a superior game, for the reasons listed above. Not everyone who played WoW that tried GW has switched over. Based on my experience, the number who switch completely is very low, and the number who play both occasionally is only around 50%.

Just for reference, I have an L60 Elven Priest on Burning Blade (PvP server). I've completed every instance except MC/Onyxia. I personally haven't tried Battlegrounds, either, but I'm sure they're quite fun. However, the guild I was in has mostly splintered, and I don't feel like joining another, so I've just been in limbo (for the most part) in GW "gearing up".

Mormegil · Jun 13, 2005, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by northernlights

Mormegil your making very grandiose comments for someone without end game WoW experience, PVE or PVP.

I don't play WoW as much as I'm playing GW...my brother has an account so that I play WoW occasionally, but I'm not making any "grandiose comments" as you say, I'm just stating what 99% of Pvpers will probably tell you. I'm sorry you got offended, but at this point it's your problem, not mine. I tried to be nice. WoW simply wasn't meant for PvP, a big update like the last one (anticipated as you want, it shipped right when WoW players were dropping and switching to GW, what a coincidence) doesn't change the fact that the game was built for PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aug

GW is largely item-independent. This is great for the PvP casual player. But it's horribly stupid for the PvEer.

Not every Pveer likes to farm/macro all day to play PvE decently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aug

The GW grind is far more annoying/boring than the WoW grind, IMO

Quoted for truth, but WoW was built for grinding as well. Making grinding boring in a game that is designed around PvE is suicidal.

Jawz Swordthane · Jun 13, 2005, 06:04 PM // 18:04

I totally agree with Aug. I would also go as far as to say the a Van-Cleef /Dead-Mines run (which is the first real instance in WoW for the alliance) is way more fun than any mission in GW. Nevermind Scarlet Monestary, Molten Core, Blackrock Spire etc... When GW came out I cancelled my WoW account because the game is great. However, after I accoplished the last mission I found there was nothing left PvE wise. I couldnt bring myself to make a new character because I didnt want to go through the same missions again. That why I decided to reopen my WoW account. So now if I feel like PvP I log on to GW with my 20 W/Mo, if I feel like PvE I log on WoW with my 60 Paladin. I do have to say that BG in WoW is a blast as well.

Soda Popinski · Jun 13, 2005, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Hmm...well, I think we need to elaborate more on what is meant by GW's or WoW's PvP is better to have a sensible discussion. I've heard people on both sides say their PvP system is better.

I think GW has a really good PvP engine. But it's not without areas that need improvement. More importantly, there are certain aspects of GW PvP that can cause people to dislike it. Nothing wrong with this, I think reasonable people can disagree on whether GW or WoW has better PvP. Here are some features of GW PvP that some people may not enjoy:

1) GW's PvP has a high amount "rocks/paper/scissors" flavor to it. There are lots of match-up discrepancies. Many players enjoy this, as it creates a metagame atmosphere where players are constantly strategizing to come up with ways to counter popular builds and to out-anticipate their opponent. On the other hand, other players dislike this aspect because it means that, in a fight where both teams have good skill, to the extent that your team build is a terrible match-up with another team build that you are facing, there is little you can do to win.

2) GW's PvP teams are relatively small. This kind of goes back to #1. One of the ways to cope with a rock/scissors/paper game dynamic is to have a diverse team that can handle most (but never all) sorts of situations. But you need large teams to do this. 8 players may not be enough. 4 definitely is not- you are very much at the mercy of your opponent's team build. Also, you'll never get the "army" feel of some PvP games with GW.

3) GW's PvP forces teams to stick together in relatively close proximity. People who want a PvP experience where people can separate out and form a strike/stealth team etc. will find these options limited in GW.

4) GW's arenas lack diversity and size. Terrain is not much of a factor, and the goal types are pretty simplistic. I have faith this will be improved in patches.

5) The endgame of GW's current pre-eminent arena (TOPK) is a rather simple three way King of the Hill designed around keeping a bot alive. This rewards very specialized team builds that do not reflect the full potential of build diversity in the game. It also encourages teams to do nothing for 6-8 minutes because it is an odd match contest. It doesn't seem a worthy arena to do justice to the PvP potential in the game.

6) GW PvP lacks an epic feel, like you're doing the PvP for some larger storyline or epic goal rather than just duking it out in the arena. People who want large scale army mission type PvP will probably prefer WoW.

Anyway, my point isn't that GW PvP sucks or anything like that, just that it has features that can cause players to prefer another PvP game, like WoW.

Razorcraft · Jun 13, 2005, 06:11 PM // 18:11

When I started the WoW beta back in April of '04, it was incredible. I loved it. It was by far the most unique and interesting mmorpg I had played at that time.

They changed it. They destroyed it. It is not the same game I enjoyed so much. It is now EQ: Warcraft Edition. With the itemization, huge time and money sinks, and class imbalance... it just is no longer worth it for me.

I was/am still a member of one of the best guilds in WoW. However, it became more like a job than anything else. You can only kill Onyxia, Ragnaros, etc. so many times before you get bored out of your skull.

World of Warcraft is an item game. So much of one, in fact, that your gear is pretty much the sole factor in your survivability. You have to farm instance raids CONSTANTLY in order to get your gear.

With the new honor patch and honor rewards? The best items for pvp in the game can be found as rewards. BUT only a few in each faction can ever get them. And if your rank degrades (yes, you must keep winning and killing in order to remain at your rank) you LOSE the use of those items. That was the last straw for me.

I am trying to get them to come to GW. Because if I could, the Hall of Heroes would be OURS.

-Razor

Creston · Jun 13, 2005, 06:15 PM // 18:15

None actually. I know of two that have gone to play WoW after getting tired of GW.

Both are good games, the only benefit I see GW having over WoW is no 15 bucks a month (which to me is great.)

Creston

theclam · Jun 13, 2005, 06:20 PM // 18:20

I played WoW for a couple months, quit, and then a few months later came to GW. I think WoW is superior in most respects (explorability, number of items, vastness of world, etc.), except for a few that count the most. Character customization was crap in WoW. The only thing that really mattered was your talent tree.

For example, for Warlocks, Affliction and Demonology warlocks wanted a lot of stamina and some intellect (because they have excellent mana regeneration and a double life spell, respectively), whereas Destruction warlocks wanted a lot of intellect and some stamina. Your talent tree determined your item choices. Trade skills were a joke. You could buy better or equivalent items at the AH, for every single profession except for engineering.

You didn't have very many unique, interesting abilities in WoW either. For my Druid (supposedly a primary healing class), the only healing abilities were a direct heal, a heal over time, a combination of the two, an inbattle res with a very long cooldown (think Vengeance with a 30m cooldown and no death after 30s), and a couple debuff removal skills. For damage abilities, I had an average cast time average damage spell, an instant cast spell that does direct damage and adds a DoT, a long cast time high damage spell, and a root that has a DoT. There are a couple more skills, but I hadn't obtained them by the time I quit, after having invested dozens of hours into that character. None of those skills are very exciting, especially compared to the wide variety of skills in GW. I actually get to make a unique build for my character, rather than a variation of a standard 31/20 or 30/21 build.

When I left (before Battlegrounds), PvP was a joke. I was on a high pop PvP server and I couldn't be in a lvl 20-40 zone for more than an hour without being ganked. All the lvl 60s loved to come back to the mid level areas and get easy kills for fun. Large scale battles were a huge lagfest, so all you could really do was throw up some AoE spells and hope you killed something.

There was also a huge difference in power and capabilities between higher and lower level players. I could barely even hit a high level player, much less damage him significantly. I couldn't be much use to my teammates either, because they had so much life and my heals weren't very powerful. Also, rich players had much better equipment than poor players, which discouraged me even more.

I like GW more and I think that after a few more months, and a few more refinements, it will have much more replayability.

Sir Skullcrasher · Jun 13, 2005, 06:23 PM // 18:23

wait i thought that when you start the game again as a new character (example you were a warrior in the first game but the second one you pick ranger or elementalist) i thought that differernt character class would have different type of mission. Say if your a ranger, you get quests from people who are ranger.

Am i wrong?

Jawz Swordthane · Jun 13, 2005, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Almost all the quests and every mission is shared by all classes.

northernlights · Jun 13, 2005, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Mormegil - Considering this is a Guild Wars forum, the # of posters supporting your arguments is indicative of how accurate they are.

cc.pyro · Jun 13, 2005, 06:39 PM // 18:39

I have one friend who, because of his unhealthy obsession with WoNF (World of No Friends, due to the fact that he would rather play it than hang out with us or his grilfriend) became 250$ in debt with his mother and let his grades plummet. Then I told him about GW and he bought my extra copy and played it. He liked it for about 2-3 weeks and then became bored because of what I assume to be not enough grind. Now he is back to wasting 15/month that he doesn't have and becoming a total prick in the process. Instead of hanging out at night he stays home to play WoNF, and because of it his girlfriend is dumping him this weekend. It's really pathetic.

northernlights · Jun 13, 2005, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by cc.pyro

I have one friend who, because of his unhealthy obsession with WoNF (World of No Friends, due to the fact that he would rather play it than hang out with us or his grilfriend) became 250$ in debt with his mother and let his grades plummet. Then I told him about GW and he bought my extra copy and played it. He liked it for about 2-3 weeks and then became bored because of what I assume to be not enough grind. Now he is back to wasting 15/month that he doesn't have and becoming a total prick in the process. Instead of hanging out at night he stays home to play WoNF, and because of it his girlfriend is dumping him this weekend. It's really pathetic.

Thats a stronger argument for WoW being superior than any of us could come up with.

Mormegil · Jun 13, 2005, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by northernlights

Mormegil - Considering this is a Guild Wars forum, the # of posters supporting your arguments is indicative of how accurate they are.

That's all you can come up with? Too bad. Absolutely false as well...

And I don't see many people supporting WoW PvP, since the most used word to describe it seems to be "lagfest".
Besides, a game should be designed in a way that you can enjoy it while living your real life, otherwise its target is 19- yrs old guys. I think World of No Friends lacks badly in this.

northernlights · Jun 13, 2005, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mormegil

And I don't see many people supporting WoW PvP, since the most used word to describe it seems to be "lagfest".

Duh? Again, this is a Guild Wars forum (and theres more WoW praise in this thread than even I expected).

Secondly, read the posts. No one that has played WoW since the PVP changes has referred to it lagging at all.

Enough of this kid.

appleseed · Jun 14, 2005, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Until BG, WOW pvp was nothing more than zerging. Trying to alter strategies or create new tactics never did anything, the only thing that mattered is which side had more L60 zerglings.

GW is a nice break where there is a decent amount of strategy involved...it reminds me of MTG decks more than anything a MMORPG.

The two games are different enough wherei find it hard to compare. It's like comparing Michael Jordan to Elway. You just kind of scratch your head.

eventhorizen · Jun 14, 2005, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Lol, I just fired up WoW for the first time since Gw got released because of this thread. This is what I get.

Downloading Patch..... Ok
162mb........ Whoa!!!!
Download Rate 2kb/s....... yeah right

Thats what it tells me right now.

Mormegil · Jun 14, 2005, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by northernlights

Duh? Again, this is a Guild Wars forum (and theres more WoW praise in this thread than even I expected).

Secondly, read the posts. No one that has played WoW since the PVP changes has referred to it lagging at all.

Err...I just see calm people discussing about the pros and cons of WoW an GW, if you call it "praise" you probably lack in the basics of reading comprehension. The fact that people here isn't bringing down WoW (hell, not even I am, what's the deal with you?) just shows you how well built and impartial this forum is. If you're a fanboy, that's your problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by northernlights

Enough of this kid.

Huh-oh. If you're so convinced you're right, why are you spitting out hysterical personal attacks? Maybe it's time for you to play a little bit of World of Warcraft to relax, you look nervous to me.

Bye.